Jay Gilmore, of SmashingRed, and I have been discussing the availability (and/or feasibility) of Canadian-based web design conference. Jay posted on his blog the following:
To all the Canadian developers and designers for the web, I noted a post on [thelist] the mail list of evolt.org wanting to know if their are any Canadian Web Developer /Designer conferences. It seems as if this is an unheard of event. If anyone out there knows of any other event besides Flash In The Can let me know.
If you don’t know of any such events, let me know if you have any interest in a Great White North Web Conference. It could be held anywhere and or we could rotate locations around the country. BTW my own bent is toward standards-based websites using (X)HTML and CSS but XML and other technologies are more than welcome to discuss and suggest a program etc. I really want to push websites as a marketing and sales vehicle as well. This post is a little stream-of-consciousness but I had the impulse to post.
Feel free to comment there or here.
UPDATE (13 Dec 2005): See more here on the feasibility of a Toronto-based conference.
UPDATE (14 Dec 2005): Vote for your preferred location.
I’d definitely be up for one. Of course, I’m in Windsor. Driveable metropolitan areas are: Toronto and surrounding area, London and surrounding area. That’s about it.
I too would like to participate: I live in Sudbury (Ontario) and so Toronto and Ottawa are within reach.
Given that there are about 30 demonstrable standardistas in the entire country, maybe 50 if you include people who think tables for layout is still OK in 2005, any Canadian Web-design conference would inevitably become a dumping ground for the charlatans who call themselves developers in this country– and make a good living delivering sites that work just fine in IE/Win, have hundreds of validation errors, and tell disabled users to go to hell. This includes pretty much everyone don in Liberty Village, on Spadina, and actually everywhere across the country.
Canadian Web developers have the country’s storied passion for bronze. They just do a really good job of making you think it’s gold.
So no, let’s not have a conference. The last thing I need is guys (and they’ll all be guys) getting up there showing us complete crapola and calling it bleeding-edge.
Really, this is a terrible idea, because the industry in Canada is itself terrible.
TOEvolt.org was good although it did have some speakers from outside of Canada. In a Dreamweaver list I belonged to a few months ago, I met a couple of good Canadian designers who were using standards-based markup. Derek would be a great speaker (as would yourself, Joe). I think there is good reason to continue to pursue this worthy goal.
I don’t think a Canadian conference needs to be limited to Canadian speakers. Certainly it would be nice, but I think the important issue is simply having conferences that are more easily accessible to those living in Canada. I’d love to attend a conference that doesn’t cost $3,000 in fees, airfare, and accommodations like WDW cost me in Seattle this summer. I’m sure others would as well.
That being said, There are some well known Canadian “standardistas” that could make a good addition to such conferences.
I disagree with Joe’s declaration that because there’s not enough quality developers within Canada that we shouldn’t have a conference. If anything, I think it proves that we do need one. Let’s raise awareness of quality web development within Canada instead of letting it get worse. And just because it’s in Canada certainly doesn’t mean it can’t feature presenters from around the world.
In any case, I think there are plenty of developers in Canada who are committed to quality, standards-based sites and per capita is likely on par with other countries. Joe, I’d be interested to hear why you think otherwise.
That being said, I like the idea.
Just recently there was the DesignFest conference, but other than that nad FiTC, I’m not really aware of any other major conferences of interest here in Canada for web designers.
My own wish would be to do something along the lines of SXSWi. We already have NXNE, so why not a NXNEi?
And as Jonathan said, it doesn’t have to just include Canadian speakers. The web is a global medium and so the community of speakers would best represent that.
And to respond to Joe — I don’t disagree that there are a lot of folks in Canada that call themselves web designers who know little to nothing of standards, accessibility or even basic code practice, but I place a lot of blame for that on employers and employee education.
I can’t comment on the school situation since I’ve been out for long enough now that I have no idea what they’re teaching, but hopefully they’re trying to get people’s feet wet with accessibility and web standards. If they’re not then perhaps education through such a conference could be a stepping stone to changing things.
Man, Joe’s comment pissed me right off. Jonathan and Scott covered it nicely, so I’ll leave it at that.
Anyway, I know a handful of designers in Ontario alone who would definitely be into such an event. Myself included, of course. I’ve often questioned the lack of conferences/events we get and would love to see some of the more well known standards/css gurus from Canada and around the globe for that matter, speak in person.
Um, wow, Joe Clark… that was… ahem. All I have to say is: Self-fulfilling prophecy. If you continue to be satisfied or believe that the status quo is the best it will ever get, then that’s where you’ll stay.
I would definitely be interested in a conference or _event_ of sorts. Western Canada, please and thank you. That would be awesome.
If there is anything that Canada needs, is another conference. Our industry “sucks”, as Joe put it, is mainly because we are so out of touch with others that work in the same field as us. This is precisely why DesignFest and FITC are so successful.
Bottom line, I think this is a great idea, and be very interested in attending/helping plan/contributing in some other manner.
And what for Quebec? You didn’t talk about Quebec? ;-) Our (canadian) industry certainly needs it, just take a look at how many canadian web design/developping companies who don’t know anything about web standards and accessibility…
OK, you lot, here’s a counteroffer.
You put a conference together, invite all the charlatans and also the students and the employees who don’t know any better, but only let standardistas speak. Teach the bastards.
Keep the Extend Media/Blast Radius axis off the frigging stage. They’re the problem.
If this ends up with an air of “We know better than you, so listen up, wankers, and learn something for a change,” well, I’d be fine with that, of course. We do know better than they do, they do need to listen up, and they desperately need to learn something.
I’d be interested in a GTA event. That would be sweet.
I’ve been thinking of this for quite a while. I wish to attend conferences, but all the worth-while (or rather existent) ones are in the U.S and in my current situation that’s impossible to do.
I definitely think that these proposed conferences will have many benefits to all involved and to the industry here in Canada, which is frankly way behind our neighbors to the South.
I stand strong behind Jonathan Snook’s statements about not only having Canadian speakers, but having speakers from around the world and having the benefit of our multi-cultural society to add to it all.
We could have meetups such as Refresh Phoenix and Dallas Refresh for individual cities across Canada along with larger Canada-wide conferences that could be relocated from time to time, like the Olympics.
Scott — All I can account for is that the education available, at least in high school, is not only distasteful but also ineffectual.
Mr.Clark, you have some valid points but I think you were overly cynical.
I’m SO in to this.
I’ll lay off the Joe bashing, as it’s just too easy. Personally, I can see nothing but good coming from a gathering like this. Looking through the comments above, I see a long list of people I’d like to meet.
Part of the reason we have such a small impact is that by and large, we’re single practitioners or small shops. Meeting face to face leads to collaboration, which leads to larger projects, which leads to a larger impact on the overall market.
Sign me up!
I agree with Joe on this in that there should be some assurance that those who are asked to speak are up to scratch with standards-based design/development, where applicable. There may be topics that don’t need standardistas such as a general discussion on Information Architecture, how to build/manage a web design business or any other topic that doesn’t touch on the code.
I wholeheartedly agree and would be glad to assist in planning and organizing such an event.
What’s the next logical step, folks? Should we get a basecamp account and get brainstorming?
Advantage #1 of a Canadian Web conference: it’ll help solve the very real problem Joe is referring to (i.e., what passes for “Web design” is not the same stuff that built this site).
Advantage #2 of a Canadian Web conference: it’ll help build our community (look at whose commenting — we gots some smarts here).
Advantage #3 of a Canadian Web conference: Cdn$1 = Cdn$1.
Sign me up (and probably another dozen or so others in Toronto’s loose Web-standards community).
Yep, great idea. Don’t think there’s a need for an all-Canuck panel, though I can see Joe Clark, Jonathan Snook, Peter Flaschner, Derek Featherstone and Craig Saila speaking on something or other for sure. I really like Peter’s point about the collaborative nature of such a gathering.
Looking forward to meeting the people I’ve been reading. Count me in!
I think this is an awesome idea! I’ve just really started paying close attention to standards within the last year ( I also started becoming more involved with web-dev around the same time), and I would love the opportunity learn more.
When, where and how can I help!
See more here on the feasibility of a Toronto-based conference.
Not sure if many of you heard of the CanUX conference last September…it was great, but I’d like there to have been more CanCon.
Scott’s idea of a NXNE pairing really appeals to me. Wonder if there’d be enough time to hit June 2006?
Montreal ! Montreal !
I love the idea !
I’m so into this. If the people who have commented already each got 2 people to come out to a conference, and each one of them got 2 people we would have… you do the math.
I’ve talked about this with some of the like-minded locals here on the left coast, and I know this would be a well attended event.
I won’t bash Joe either, but I can’t hold back from mentioning the fact that the founder of the CSS Zen Garden – Dave Shea, is a canuck too.
Let’s make this happen people!
Sweet! I’d very much be interested in any web conferences out there. I’m located in Toronto – it would be nice to know and network with other designers out there and learn new technologies!
I’m definitely interested. As a matter of fact I’m in Boston right now at Web Design World 2005, which I was late for because I couldn’t find my birth cert. for crossing the border. :-)
Will definitely attend any web event in Canada, and especially in Montreal.
Don’t think there’s not enough Canadian designers who know their craft. Many of them struggle with company budgets and deadlines, but tries to bring web standards and good practice to their deliverables.
I think the idea is very interesting. I’m located near Toronto so something in that area would work best for me. I’d consider elsewhere depending on cost.
I think a Web Conference would be great for Canada. I have been to SES conferences in Canada and while they might not be as large as some of the American ones, they still can draw great speakers and great attendees.
I am all for this.
Being someone responsible for hiring web developers who follow standards, it would be great for more to become enlightened.
It sounds like a great idea to me.. although I’m on the West Coast, and don’t speak our second language…
May I suggest that it be based in Montreal instead of TO or Vancouver? This would mean we could provide something that stamps it Canadian… namely have french speakers. Just a thought. Failing that TO sounds most appropriate, though of course if it was in Vancouver I could avoid a flight which would be nice. :)
If you also add in Blogging to that Web Devel and Designer conference, I will be there. Especially if its in T.O. (I live in Ottawa).
I’ve been thinking about this, and I’m curious what the interest would be in a virtual conference. I enjoy meeting others, but it can be really expensive for people to attend even if it was in Canada.
Obviously there would be issues to iron out, but I think it is something we could do an a more regular basis.
Just a thought.
I have participated (watched) a MySQL Webinar before and while it has some benefit, given that the audience is worldwide, it is not the same as being there. MySQL has been putting these on almost biweekly so for the audience, it provides many seminars without having to leave your seat.
I am not certain I would agree with the idea of a virtual conference but, like WE05, podcasts would be a great idea. For me, one of the great benefits of taking the time (and money) to attend a conference is that you get to rub noses (figuratively speaking, unless you are Inuit) with fellow designers and of course the speakers.
At TOEvolt.org last year, I got to meet Dan Cederholm, Adrian Roselli, Joe Clark and Javier Velasco (the speakers) and many great people (mostly) from Toronto and talk shop in ways that I can’t here in Sudbury.
There isn’t a basis to “bash” Joe here, you know. If there were, you would be endorsing the idea that actual knowledge of correct Web-development practices doesn’t matter; what matters is putting whatever you want online and calling it a Web site.
And that is exactly what’s wrong with Canadian Web development. It is *my point exactly*.
Do you want some twit up on stage who earns a six-figure salary snowing blue-chip clients into buying, say, $20 million SAP implementations that can’t output valid HTML? (Do you shop at Chapters? Because that’s what actually happened. I merely assume the six-figure salary.)
Not only is Canada behind the United States, to which we always compare ourselves, the entire country is behind Brighton, England; Sydney, Australia; and Wellington, New Zealand.
Sounds like an excellent reason to have a conference.
While I’m baffled by Joe’s comments, certainly after visiting some of the sites linked to above, I think this is a wonderful idea. Personally I’d like to see it out in Western Canada, Vancouver or Calgary perhaps.
I don’t exactly see what’s so “baffl[ing]” about my comments. Do you honestly believe that the level of actual competence of Canadian Web designers and developers is even remotely adequate compared to other countries and, as I’ve mentioned, other cities?
Well, unlike Joe, I think it’s about damn time. I’ve been jetting off to cities in other countries for the past year or so, which is fun and all, but doesn’t exactly speak well of the Canadian industry.
Obviously I’m more interested in a conference which promotes modern, standards-based design methods. To the point where I think it would be ridiculous to organize a conference in 2006 that doesn’t. So to that end, here are a few things to think about.
Though they’re self-selecting in a sense, all the conferences I’ve been to lately (with one exception: FITC, ironically) have had a strong bent toward standards based design. And these aren’t necessarily conferences that were initiated to promote web standards either, in some cases they’re just simply web conferences. They promote web standards, because that’s what the industry wants.
I’m in a hotel in Boston, right now, as I type this, after having completed a few presentations at Web Design World. See ‘standards’ in the name? Neither do I, but at least 70% of the sessions assumed members of the audience were building standards-based web sites. Macromedia had a whole track devoted to making their products work with standards. (Give or take.)
Jeffrey Zeldman keynoted this conference with “Designing With Web Standards”, a presentation-friendly version of his book of the same name. At one point he asked how many in the audience were building standards-based sites. 90% or more of the hands in the audience went up.
Point being? It’s expected in the industry. If a Canadian conference wants to be taken seriously and attract respected speakers from abroad, it’ll take the issue seriously. I think those proposing it are well aware of all this.
Note also that people who attend the conferences I’m talking about are not the highly visible designer types who would be expected to know how to develop with standards anyway; many are working in-house at large companies, government agencies, and at smaller web studios. I’m convinced there are far, far more than 30 to 50 ‘standardistas’ in Canada.
If there are more than 30 or 50 standardistas in this country, the excess must be really slow typists, because the observable work in Canadian Web sites looks, acts, and quacks like it’s from 1997 at the latest.
You want a conference? Fine. I already gave you a counteroffer, which subsequent commenters have supported. Hold a conference. Just keep the wankers offstage. And there’s certainly nothing wrong with holding it in Toronto; it’s the city that requires the greatest remediation. The idea of flying to Calgary is a bit ridiculous for anyone outside Alberta, frankly, and would stupefy foreigners altogether. Montreal seemed to work pretty well for recent usability conferences. I also know of at least one existing standardista conference that might be willing to expand.
Also, this blog (short for “Web log”) dearly needs a comment-preview function so I can catch my typing errors.
Actually, Joe, there is at least one thing “wrong” with holding it in Toronto; there’s already one there (see previous comments and the newest post regarding DesignFest). And that’s not including the prohibitive costs of holding a conference there, both for the organisers and the attendees.
I don’t think flying to Calgary is any more ridiculous than flying to Toronto for those who live outside of Ontario. Same goes for any city.
And regarding your spelling habits, I think what’s dearly needed is you being more attentive to what you type.
Time to stop worrying about Joe, he clearly has no idea what he’s talking about. He’s just trying to rile people up, and knows he’ll be out of a job when he can no longer peddle the crap work he’s apparently endorsing. Let’s not play into his hand.
I’m in for Toronto conference. Let’s move on and make this happen!
Feel free to cast your vote for a preferred location.
Dear Adam Thody,
I actually do know what I’m talking about. (Please check the record.) I’m simply unwilling to cheerlead.
Dear Kim Siever,
My spelling’s great. My typing’s imperfect. Comment preview lets us catch mistakes.
Dear Dave Shea,
Your roomful of standardistas were all or mostly Americans.
On a related matter to whoever is looking to organize this, over at meyerweb is a nice post on event pricing.
Dear Joe Clark,
Granted. But, I gave a talk at an XML user group event in Vancouver (Canada) a few months back that attracted about 3 or 4 times usual turnout. 80ish people. Standing room only. Which leads me to strongly suspect that the interest I described is not limited to those outside our borders.
Dear Dave Shea,
How *is* the missus?
I live in Victoria, BC (just across the water from Vancouver), and would definitely like the opportunity to attend a web conference. But let’s have it in the western end of the country, please? A point has been made about the expense of attending (much less hosting) such an event in Toronto or Montreal, and a point has also been made that similar things have been done already in that part of the counry. Please, go west this time. Me, I know that such an event is unlikely to happen in Victoria, but would be delighted at attend the event if it were in Vancouver.
For the past 2 years and coming again in April 2006 is Search Engine Strategies her e in Toronto.
This is a road show version (2 days versus 3 days) of the larger Conference held in New York, San Jose and Chicago each year. While about half the sessions are focused towards marketing types the other half is appropriately suited to web developers.
I had the opportunity to speak last years conference. I’ve previously attended the 2004 Toronto SES conference and the 2003 SES Boston. I’ve never regreded my time there.
As to location, while I like being close to home, it’s always fun to travel and it does allow me to concentrate on all that goes on instead of domestic duties.
My personal vote for a location is the Rocky Mountains (Banff perhaps) or at least Vancouver.
Clark you have some valid points but at the same time I thin he is bering very cynical to get his point across.
Whether right or wrong I am glad the whole standards thing is being discussed as it looks it is going to be a hot topic for thee next *while*
http://www.contentheavy.com
I would do my best to attend.
I missed this post and comment thread.
There is one question that I have in response to Mr. Clarke, whom I don’t know and that is: How is it that the UK and the US and other development industries are so ahead of Canada or are they? And if they are, how did they get that way?
I could make some conclusions a la “Freakonomics” or “Tipping Point”, based on the implementation of accessibility laws, on the high-risk business environment or I could just say that it is easier to see examples of junk development in our own backyard and filter all the $hit that is out there from other countries.
As Joe points out, Chapters is a crap site with crap code but we see all the time because it is a Canadian Company. There are tonnes of other examples of this type of obvious-to-us, tag-soup that we don’t see from the US because we don’t know their brands, not the huge multinationals but their smaller regional banks or furniture chains etc. So we can say that, oh yeah, Canada is in the dark ages or we can realise that the filter is on and that we tend to be more critical of our own.
That being said, how can we become the best developers in the world with defeatist attitudes in isolated corners of this vast land? I say we do the conference somehow or another. Band together, piss people off and force change.
-Jay
I’d very much like to attend something like this, hopefully if it does happen it’ll be accessible to me. I live in Calgary, so maybe not, but who knows.
Great idea. I have been looking at U.S. web design conferences, such as the upcoming “An Event Apart”(s), but I would prefer to go to an event in Canda. Best of luck. I will keep my eyes open.
Yes, this is a great idea! I propose a focus on the emerging CMS like Joomla and drupal. Make it in Vancouver and I’ll be there!